Can time exist without change?
Imagine an event of one second in length, like the blink of an eye. Suppose that another second elapses between the closing and reopening of your eyes, a second in which nothing happens in the whole universe (or in all universes). You and your eyelids stand still, and nothing else moves or changes, neither here nor anywhere - not a hair, a planet or a god, an absolute stasis. Does this second really pass?
If so, you could extend this second to a minute, a day, or a million years, because if nothing happens in this time interval, you can't determine how long it will last: an infinite time lurks between each instant. Time, therefore, seems not to exist unrelated to the relationships between things, because in a universe(s) without events it loses any value. Whatever the measure of an instant, in fact, it is such only in relation to some change: the rising of the sun, the motion of a hand, the appearance of a wrinkle, the resonance of an atom.
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
metaphysics time thought-experiment
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show 12 more comments
Imagine an event of one second in length, like the blink of an eye. Suppose that another second elapses between the closing and reopening of your eyes, a second in which nothing happens in the whole universe (or in all universes). You and your eyelids stand still, and nothing else moves or changes, neither here nor anywhere - not a hair, a planet or a god, an absolute stasis. Does this second really pass?
If so, you could extend this second to a minute, a day, or a million years, because if nothing happens in this time interval, you can't determine how long it will last: an infinite time lurks between each instant. Time, therefore, seems not to exist unrelated to the relationships between things, because in a universe(s) without events it loses any value. Whatever the measure of an instant, in fact, it is such only in relation to some change: the rising of the sun, the motion of a hand, the appearance of a wrinkle, the resonance of an atom.
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
metaphysics time thought-experiment
2
Newton's invention of the calculus gives an alternative to your last issue. He introduced the notion of the derivative tendency toward change, at the same time, Leibniz introduced the notion of an 'infinitessimal' change, a change too small for humans to comprehend it, yet still present. Our modern notions of physics incorporate such things as the moment of inertia to reflect not just real differences, but the established tendency to change unless some other influence enters the picture. So that change can still be represented at a single point in time.
– jobermark
yesterday
Durin my eyes closed you suppose my mind also in a stasis? What is the force that opens my eyes then?
– rus9384
yesterday
1
It is the thing that turns a collection of points into a continuous line. We do not have a good explicit description of it, but it is central to a lot of modern mathematics. The point is that time is woven into our intuition of continuity, and if we factor it out, we still have this notion of 'fat points' that are connected by this 'halo of inclination'. It is also part of our notion of continuous space, and it is captured only by limit processes, which depend implicitly on our notion of iteration and time or by 'nonstandard' objects that capture a notion of 'transcendence' which does too.
– jobermark
23 hours ago
3
Sir Roger Penrose has an interesting theory. Mass requires time. While ever there is mass in the universe there'll be entropy and therefore change. But in the 'very boring' (heat death) phase there'll come a point where there is no mass, only photons. And a photon doesn't experience time, therefore the size of the universe becomes irrelevant and the conditions resemble that of the big bang. In that phase of the universe time may still exist but without any change in entropy. He claims at some point the universe will 'forget' it's age and size.
– Richard
21 hours ago
1
@FrancescoD'Isa Penrose is a great man. He solved the Rubik's cube with 'group theory' as a kind of aside. Brilliant mathematician, brilliant physicist, but also quite philosophically aware and free thinking. This is a nice interview youtube.com/watch?v=z2_6h15UCMg. This is where his passion lies (one of my favourite videos on youtube youtube.com/watch?v=th3YMEamzmw. For simulation theory look for 'two time' and the standard model.
– Richard
11 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
Imagine an event of one second in length, like the blink of an eye. Suppose that another second elapses between the closing and reopening of your eyes, a second in which nothing happens in the whole universe (or in all universes). You and your eyelids stand still, and nothing else moves or changes, neither here nor anywhere - not a hair, a planet or a god, an absolute stasis. Does this second really pass?
If so, you could extend this second to a minute, a day, or a million years, because if nothing happens in this time interval, you can't determine how long it will last: an infinite time lurks between each instant. Time, therefore, seems not to exist unrelated to the relationships between things, because in a universe(s) without events it loses any value. Whatever the measure of an instant, in fact, it is such only in relation to some change: the rising of the sun, the motion of a hand, the appearance of a wrinkle, the resonance of an atom.
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
metaphysics time thought-experiment
Imagine an event of one second in length, like the blink of an eye. Suppose that another second elapses between the closing and reopening of your eyes, a second in which nothing happens in the whole universe (or in all universes). You and your eyelids stand still, and nothing else moves or changes, neither here nor anywhere - not a hair, a planet or a god, an absolute stasis. Does this second really pass?
If so, you could extend this second to a minute, a day, or a million years, because if nothing happens in this time interval, you can't determine how long it will last: an infinite time lurks between each instant. Time, therefore, seems not to exist unrelated to the relationships between things, because in a universe(s) without events it loses any value. Whatever the measure of an instant, in fact, it is such only in relation to some change: the rising of the sun, the motion of a hand, the appearance of a wrinkle, the resonance of an atom.
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
metaphysics time thought-experiment
metaphysics time thought-experiment
edited 13 hours ago
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asked yesterday
Francesco D'IsaFrancesco D'Isa
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Newton's invention of the calculus gives an alternative to your last issue. He introduced the notion of the derivative tendency toward change, at the same time, Leibniz introduced the notion of an 'infinitessimal' change, a change too small for humans to comprehend it, yet still present. Our modern notions of physics incorporate such things as the moment of inertia to reflect not just real differences, but the established tendency to change unless some other influence enters the picture. So that change can still be represented at a single point in time.
– jobermark
yesterday
Durin my eyes closed you suppose my mind also in a stasis? What is the force that opens my eyes then?
– rus9384
yesterday
1
It is the thing that turns a collection of points into a continuous line. We do not have a good explicit description of it, but it is central to a lot of modern mathematics. The point is that time is woven into our intuition of continuity, and if we factor it out, we still have this notion of 'fat points' that are connected by this 'halo of inclination'. It is also part of our notion of continuous space, and it is captured only by limit processes, which depend implicitly on our notion of iteration and time or by 'nonstandard' objects that capture a notion of 'transcendence' which does too.
– jobermark
23 hours ago
3
Sir Roger Penrose has an interesting theory. Mass requires time. While ever there is mass in the universe there'll be entropy and therefore change. But in the 'very boring' (heat death) phase there'll come a point where there is no mass, only photons. And a photon doesn't experience time, therefore the size of the universe becomes irrelevant and the conditions resemble that of the big bang. In that phase of the universe time may still exist but without any change in entropy. He claims at some point the universe will 'forget' it's age and size.
– Richard
21 hours ago
1
@FrancescoD'Isa Penrose is a great man. He solved the Rubik's cube with 'group theory' as a kind of aside. Brilliant mathematician, brilliant physicist, but also quite philosophically aware and free thinking. This is a nice interview youtube.com/watch?v=z2_6h15UCMg. This is where his passion lies (one of my favourite videos on youtube youtube.com/watch?v=th3YMEamzmw. For simulation theory look for 'two time' and the standard model.
– Richard
11 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
2
Newton's invention of the calculus gives an alternative to your last issue. He introduced the notion of the derivative tendency toward change, at the same time, Leibniz introduced the notion of an 'infinitessimal' change, a change too small for humans to comprehend it, yet still present. Our modern notions of physics incorporate such things as the moment of inertia to reflect not just real differences, but the established tendency to change unless some other influence enters the picture. So that change can still be represented at a single point in time.
– jobermark
yesterday
Durin my eyes closed you suppose my mind also in a stasis? What is the force that opens my eyes then?
– rus9384
yesterday
1
It is the thing that turns a collection of points into a continuous line. We do not have a good explicit description of it, but it is central to a lot of modern mathematics. The point is that time is woven into our intuition of continuity, and if we factor it out, we still have this notion of 'fat points' that are connected by this 'halo of inclination'. It is also part of our notion of continuous space, and it is captured only by limit processes, which depend implicitly on our notion of iteration and time or by 'nonstandard' objects that capture a notion of 'transcendence' which does too.
– jobermark
23 hours ago
3
Sir Roger Penrose has an interesting theory. Mass requires time. While ever there is mass in the universe there'll be entropy and therefore change. But in the 'very boring' (heat death) phase there'll come a point where there is no mass, only photons. And a photon doesn't experience time, therefore the size of the universe becomes irrelevant and the conditions resemble that of the big bang. In that phase of the universe time may still exist but without any change in entropy. He claims at some point the universe will 'forget' it's age and size.
– Richard
21 hours ago
1
@FrancescoD'Isa Penrose is a great man. He solved the Rubik's cube with 'group theory' as a kind of aside. Brilliant mathematician, brilliant physicist, but also quite philosophically aware and free thinking. This is a nice interview youtube.com/watch?v=z2_6h15UCMg. This is where his passion lies (one of my favourite videos on youtube youtube.com/watch?v=th3YMEamzmw. For simulation theory look for 'two time' and the standard model.
– Richard
11 hours ago
2
2
Newton's invention of the calculus gives an alternative to your last issue. He introduced the notion of the derivative tendency toward change, at the same time, Leibniz introduced the notion of an 'infinitessimal' change, a change too small for humans to comprehend it, yet still present. Our modern notions of physics incorporate such things as the moment of inertia to reflect not just real differences, but the established tendency to change unless some other influence enters the picture. So that change can still be represented at a single point in time.
– jobermark
yesterday
Newton's invention of the calculus gives an alternative to your last issue. He introduced the notion of the derivative tendency toward change, at the same time, Leibniz introduced the notion of an 'infinitessimal' change, a change too small for humans to comprehend it, yet still present. Our modern notions of physics incorporate such things as the moment of inertia to reflect not just real differences, but the established tendency to change unless some other influence enters the picture. So that change can still be represented at a single point in time.
– jobermark
yesterday
Durin my eyes closed you suppose my mind also in a stasis? What is the force that opens my eyes then?
– rus9384
yesterday
Durin my eyes closed you suppose my mind also in a stasis? What is the force that opens my eyes then?
– rus9384
yesterday
1
1
It is the thing that turns a collection of points into a continuous line. We do not have a good explicit description of it, but it is central to a lot of modern mathematics. The point is that time is woven into our intuition of continuity, and if we factor it out, we still have this notion of 'fat points' that are connected by this 'halo of inclination'. It is also part of our notion of continuous space, and it is captured only by limit processes, which depend implicitly on our notion of iteration and time or by 'nonstandard' objects that capture a notion of 'transcendence' which does too.
– jobermark
23 hours ago
It is the thing that turns a collection of points into a continuous line. We do not have a good explicit description of it, but it is central to a lot of modern mathematics. The point is that time is woven into our intuition of continuity, and if we factor it out, we still have this notion of 'fat points' that are connected by this 'halo of inclination'. It is also part of our notion of continuous space, and it is captured only by limit processes, which depend implicitly on our notion of iteration and time or by 'nonstandard' objects that capture a notion of 'transcendence' which does too.
– jobermark
23 hours ago
3
3
Sir Roger Penrose has an interesting theory. Mass requires time. While ever there is mass in the universe there'll be entropy and therefore change. But in the 'very boring' (heat death) phase there'll come a point where there is no mass, only photons. And a photon doesn't experience time, therefore the size of the universe becomes irrelevant and the conditions resemble that of the big bang. In that phase of the universe time may still exist but without any change in entropy. He claims at some point the universe will 'forget' it's age and size.
– Richard
21 hours ago
Sir Roger Penrose has an interesting theory. Mass requires time. While ever there is mass in the universe there'll be entropy and therefore change. But in the 'very boring' (heat death) phase there'll come a point where there is no mass, only photons. And a photon doesn't experience time, therefore the size of the universe becomes irrelevant and the conditions resemble that of the big bang. In that phase of the universe time may still exist but without any change in entropy. He claims at some point the universe will 'forget' it's age and size.
– Richard
21 hours ago
1
1
@FrancescoD'Isa Penrose is a great man. He solved the Rubik's cube with 'group theory' as a kind of aside. Brilliant mathematician, brilliant physicist, but also quite philosophically aware and free thinking. This is a nice interview youtube.com/watch?v=z2_6h15UCMg. This is where his passion lies (one of my favourite videos on youtube youtube.com/watch?v=th3YMEamzmw. For simulation theory look for 'two time' and the standard model.
– Richard
11 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa Penrose is a great man. He solved the Rubik's cube with 'group theory' as a kind of aside. Brilliant mathematician, brilliant physicist, but also quite philosophically aware and free thinking. This is a nice interview youtube.com/watch?v=z2_6h15UCMg. This is where his passion lies (one of my favourite videos on youtube youtube.com/watch?v=th3YMEamzmw. For simulation theory look for 'two time' and the standard model.
– Richard
11 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
11 Answers
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You already seem to know the scientific perspective on this, but perhaps it's still worth elaborating a bit on it.
You can define a second as the amount of time that passes between two ticks of the second hand of a clock. Our modern definition of the second is essentially a more precise version of the same idea, where the oscillations of the radiation emitted by a suitable atom play the role of the hand of the clock:
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.
So if nothing happens during your "second" in the whole universe—if no clock moves its hand and no electromagnetic wave oscillates—then no time has passed.
From a theoretical point of view, this hand of the clock or radiation does not necessarily itself need to be "real". It's enough to consider what would happen if such a clock or such radiation was present. An empty universe which contains no matter at all but in which times passes is perfectly conceivable by the laws of physics. Plain Minkowski spacetime is like that.
New contributor
1
An infinite Minkowski spacetime without any mass or energy content is entirely symmetric in space and time, which means that any point in spacetime is exactly the same as any other. The value of the time (or space) coordinate then becomes entirely meaningless, and might as well be done away with. In this sense, I argue the exact opposite of your last paragraph is true.
– RQM
8 hours ago
1
As an addition - if no electromagnetic waves oscillate then that eye won't see anything, open or not.
– Lio Elbammalf
7 hours ago
add a comment |
You seem to be asking "what is time?".
If you are asking in the sense of our science of physics, then time is defined by its measurement: time is what a clock reads. Quite literally that. And since Einstein, that is a rather flexible definition. Anyways, it does not tell you anything about what time actually is. But by that definition, in your example, since the clock itself would freeze for a minute or million years as well, your "pause" would indeed not be relevant, and time (sic) would not progress until the clock continued moving.
If you are asking in the sense of "reality", then the answer is "nobody knows". We don't know enough about the universe to decide what things actually, really, really are, and physics does not change that in the least. This is not only true for time, but for anything at all. We only have mathematic/physical theories, which happen to not having been proven wrong yet, but all they do is make predictions about how certain measurements could turn out in certain experiments (our eyes are only measuring instruments as well). We arguably can never leave Plato's Cave, or at least we are quite far away from it.
If you asking in a philosophical sense, then the answer is up to you, really, to go by taste and opinion. People have come up with plenty of different interpretations.
add a comment |
The OP asks the following questions:
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
Bradley Dowden surveys two perspectives, substantivalism and relationalism, with regards to the question whether time requires change:
Substantivalism is the thesis that space and time exist independently of physical material and its events.
Relationism is the thesis that space is only a set of relationships among existing physical material, and time is a set of relationships among the events of that physical material.
Dowden notes that "Relationism is inconsistent with substantivalism; they both cannot be true, although they both could be false." Both sides agree that time cannot be measured without change. The disagreement is whether time exists without change. The substantivalist can have an "empty time". The relationist cannot.
The difference between these two views goes back to Plato, a substantivalist, and Aristotle, a relationist. More recently Newton was a substantivalist and Leibniz a relationist.
Leibniz claimed that Newton's substantivalism violated the Law of the Identity of Indiscernibles and the Law of Sufficient Reason. Leibniz argued that if God transformed the world in space or time but changed nothing else this would be a different world for Newton, but not for Leibniz, and there would be no reason for God to do something like that.
Kant sided with Newton and Ernst Mach sided with Leibniz. Einstein took both positions: initially a relationist and later a substantivalist.
Dowden offers a modern defense of substantivalism using fields:
Another defense of substantivalism says that what physicists call empty space is an energetic and active field. There is no region of the field where there could be empty time in the relationist sense of Leibniz.
The answer to the OP's question is a current controversy between substantivalism and relationism with a reminder from Dowden that both sides could be wrong.
Bradley Dowden, "Time" Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://www.iep.utm.edu/time/
Thank you, very useful!
– Francesco D'Isa
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Since one might say that one of the important properties of time is to allow for change; to then suppose time exists, but that there is no change, rather goes against this.
It's a logical possibility, but then so is a universe with nothing in it; or indeed, no universe at all.
add a comment |
Intuitively speaking, I find it hard for there to be time on the lapse you get at with the description, because the being that is that lapse lacks of numerous properties of time. For example, it lacks temporal asymmetry between events (any event occur at all), etc.
I am deducing this from Aristotle's interpretation of time in his Physics IV 10-14, where basically his strong claim is that time is composed of points that we mark in changes (as if we could represent changes in a line of real numbers, with a present (or now as he calls it) being a point in the line):
"when... the soul says the nows are two, the one before and the other after, then it is and this it is that we say is time" Physics (219a27-9).
For Aristotle, we know that time passes when we perceive two parts of a change, where an asymmetrical relation holds between them (one before the other), which we (our soul) mark as two nows with the correspondent temporal asymmetry (one before the other).
Therefore, if no change is contained in the lapse, no possible change part is in the lapse. This means there is no asymmetrical relation between parts that could possibly mark a correspondent relation between nows, that would mark the passing of time.
New contributor
If you have a reference that takes a similar view to your answer this would support your answer and give the reader a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
21 hours ago
add a comment |
Time is conceived by mind. There is no absolute time only brownian movement everywhere. We are scanning the world through our eyes at a rate of around 16 Hz. For a honey bee it is higher. So in Honey bee's perception we are slow. We have chosen some band width to scan this world and relatively we are calculating. Time also relative. one second can be dilated to even millions of years if we are that much faster.
New contributor
Would you say there is an upper limit to "scan time", like for instance 1/planck time?
– christo183
9 hours ago
Where do you get that 16 Hz figure from, and how does it determine perceived time? If I were to shield your eyes from light, except for a second every 10 seconds, would you claim your perception of time would fundamentally change?
– RQM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
Further expanding upon the computer simulation idea brought up in MattClarke's answer: One interesting idea is the idea of mind uploading. If human consciousness happens to be Turing-compatible, then it
would be theoretically possible to convert a human mind into a piece of software.
Then, just like normal software, the host computer would be able to arbitrarily suspend and resume the simulation program. Modern operating systems can run hundreds of processes simultaneously because it has a scheduler that is constantly suspending and resuming processes, giving each process a fair share of computing time, i.e. timeslicing.
The running process has no awareness of whether it has been sliced or not; it just continues normally. So in that sense, no time has passed for it, yet time has passed in the outside world. However, the process might realize that it is being sliced by observing skips in the system clock, for example. So there was a change. But if you completely sandbox the process, it would not be able to perceive time passing any differently than normal, no matter how often and how long you suspend it.
There's a science fiction novel called Permutation City that explores lots of interesting implications of simulated minds:
Within the story, "Copies" – digital renderings of human brains with complete subjective consciousness, live within VR environments after a process of "scanning". Copies are the only objects within VR environments that are simulated in full detail, everything else being produced with varying levels of generalisation, lossy compression, and hashing at all times.
Much of the plot deals directly with the "lived" experience of Copies, most of whom are copies of wealthy billionaires suffering terminal illnesses or fatal accidents, who spend their existences in VR worlds of their creating, usually maintained by trust funds, which independently own and operate large computing resources for their sakes, separated physically and economically from most of the rest of the world's computing power, which is privatized as a fungible commodity. Although the wealthiest copies face no financial difficulties, they can still be threatened because copies lack political and legal rights (they are considered software), especially where the global economy is in recession. Hence they cannot afford to retreat into solipsism and ignore what is happening in the real world.
The story also explores the ideas of time slowdowns and suspension in the context of simulation vs. outside world:
At the opposite end from the wealthy Copies are those who can only afford to live in the virtual equivalent of "Slums", being bounced around the globe to the cheapest physical computing available at any given time in order to save money, while running at much slower speeds compared to the wealthy Copies. Their slowdown rate depends on how much computer power their meager assets can afford, as computer power is traded on a global exchange and goes to the highest bidder at any point in time. When they cannot afford to be "run" at all, they can be frozen as a "snapshot" until computer power is relatively affordable again. A Copy whose financial assets can only generate sufficient interest to run at a very slow rate is stuck in a rut because he/she/it becomes unemployable and is unable to generate new income, which may lead to a downward spiral.
The concept of solipsism is also examined prominently, with many less-wealthy Copies attending social functions called Slow Clubs, where socialising Copies agree to synchronise with the slowest person present. Many of these less-wealthy Copies become completely deracinated from their former lives and from world events, or else become Witnesses, who spend their time observing (at considerable time lapse) world events unfold, at the cost of any meaningful relationships with their fellow Copies. A subculture of lower/middle-class Copies, calling themselves Solipsist Nation after a philosophical work by their nominal founder, choose to completely repudiate the "real" world and any Copies still attached to it, reprogramming their models-of-brains and their VR environments in order to design themselves into their own personal vision of paradise, of whatever size and detail, disregarding slowdown in the process.
New contributor
add a comment |
I once read a thought experiment (I wish I could remember where see below) which attempted to establish that there is a subtle difference between the passage of time and change. It basically went like this:
Imagine a hypothetical universe which is composed four islands separated by force fields that no matter could pass through, but which was permeable by light and radio waves. Travel and trade was not possible between islands, but they can freely communicate with one another.
Every so often, a pink cloud would appear over one of the islands, and would sit there for 1 week. After 1 week, from the perspective of the other islands, the island which had observed the cloud, would cease all radio communications and their section of the universe would effectively go 'dark' for a period of 1 week. However, from the perspective of the people living on that island, the cloud would simply disappear without any other perceivable change, and the other three islands' clocks will have been advanced by 1 week. Scientists studying this phenomena have been unable to detect the 'missing time' by any physical means other than by comparing their clocks with those on other islands. The universe has always been this way, and its residence just accept it.
One day, a pink cloud appears over all four islands simultaneously. After one week, the clouds simply disappear and all the clocks in every island remain in sync. No one will have been able to detect the 'missing time', even though it's perfectly reasonable for the residents of this universe to infer that it existed.
Of course, this thought experiment takes place in a very different universe than our own, it doesn't address the question about whether or not such a scenario is physically possible in our universe. The point of the thought experiment is to show that from a purely philosophical perspective it can be meaningful to say:
For some period of time, nothing happened.
Update: Francesco D'Isa pointed me in the right direction. The original thought experiment was proposed by philosopher Sydney Shoemaker in 1969 in "Time without Change".
New contributor
Thank you! Maybe the original is this one? iep.utm.edu/time/#SH5. Anyway I disagree: here we inductively suppose that if time stops somewhere for a certain rule or a certain event (the pink cloud), it can stop everywhere in a similar way. But it's impossible to state that time really stopped: not only we are not able to spot it, but there's no difference between a fake rule/cloud and a supposed real one! The only difference can be stated from a perspective outside time (but then something would keep on changing, in order to spot it)
– Francesco D'Isa
39 mins ago
@FrancescoD'Isa That's it. You're correct, it's impossible to actually know if time actually stopped for all observers. And philosophers could still argue that if no one observed the passage of time, it never happened (even if the clouds were real). The question is, is it reasonable to infer that time stopped for all observers? I think it makes a decent case. If a resident of this universe were making bets one whether a time would stop this month, it would be reasonable to try to collect on that bet, even if the only actual observed phenomena is the cloud.
– p.s.w.g
26 mins ago
add a comment |
Another way to pose the same question might be to imagine that this universe we experience is in fact a computer simulation. Some rich kid outside this universe has been playing SimUniverse on the home computer. When the rich kid's mum calls him/her/it for dinner s/h/it presses the pause button. Nothing happens in our universe until s/h/it un-pauses. Has any time actually passed? Would any of us notice?
I think the answer depends on whether you are inside the simulation or outside it. From our perspective inside the simulation there is no change and no time passes.
add a comment |
It seems to me that you are asking about the nature of a thing (what you call stasis) that is constructed such that it has no bearing on anything at all.
You could construct an arbitrary number of such hypothetical phenomena, or argue that there can be at most one such phenomenon, since there is no observable or measurable difference between them, not even in theory.
What I would like to ask you, then, is this: If the presence of your phenomenon causes absolutely no difference, compared to the total absence of your phenomenon, then what good is it discussing the phenomenon, instead of discarding the idea as fruitless?
New contributor
This is an interesting perspective about the presence of a phenomenon that causes absolutely no difference. If you have a reference to someone who takes a similar view that would help support your answer and give the reader (myself) a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago
1
Thank you for your answer and welcome here! I don't fully understand what you mean with 'no relevance'. In my example there are differences, but they don't change, like if everything were freezed. To make a very simple example related to movement, every objects stays in the same mutual position. Or do you maybe argue that complete stasis is (physically or logically) impossible?
– Francesco D'Isa
11 hours ago
@FrankHubeny: I surely am not the first person to think these thoughts, but unfortunately I am not well read in philosophy, so I cannot offer references to others who share a similar point of view.
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa: If I understood you correctly, you preface your question with this hypothesis: "It may be that sometimes, everything goes into perfect statis temporarily, as if someone paused a movie, and then resumes, without leaving any trace of the stasis at all." This precludes anyone, or anything, from noticing the statis. My question then is: why not "pretend" there is no such thing, and is it really "pretending" if it yields a description of reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from the description containing the stasis phenomenon?
– RQM
9 hours ago
@RQM because being the example is logically possible, even if it could be physically impossibile, we can see that time is change. The question is not about the possibility of my hypothesis, but its logical consequences.
– Francesco D'Isa
7 hours ago
|
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If you feel there are two (duality), there must be a second thing (i.e., 'YOU' and the 'second thing'). And so there must be a second thought. So, even though the Truth is, 'Time is an illusion', I would say (since we are already familiar with Time and it has made a deep impression in our mind) if there are two, Time can exist. There is no need to think of units of time or changing definitions of Time. Even the 'duality experience' implies that there is a change from YOU and the second thing.
In deep sleep, even while so many changes happen in your body, you are not aware of Time. I mean, 'making other things still' is not the problem.
-1: You are not answering the question, but stating your own opinion.
– Jishin Noben
4 hours ago
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11 Answers
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You already seem to know the scientific perspective on this, but perhaps it's still worth elaborating a bit on it.
You can define a second as the amount of time that passes between two ticks of the second hand of a clock. Our modern definition of the second is essentially a more precise version of the same idea, where the oscillations of the radiation emitted by a suitable atom play the role of the hand of the clock:
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.
So if nothing happens during your "second" in the whole universe—if no clock moves its hand and no electromagnetic wave oscillates—then no time has passed.
From a theoretical point of view, this hand of the clock or radiation does not necessarily itself need to be "real". It's enough to consider what would happen if such a clock or such radiation was present. An empty universe which contains no matter at all but in which times passes is perfectly conceivable by the laws of physics. Plain Minkowski spacetime is like that.
New contributor
1
An infinite Minkowski spacetime without any mass or energy content is entirely symmetric in space and time, which means that any point in spacetime is exactly the same as any other. The value of the time (or space) coordinate then becomes entirely meaningless, and might as well be done away with. In this sense, I argue the exact opposite of your last paragraph is true.
– RQM
8 hours ago
1
As an addition - if no electromagnetic waves oscillate then that eye won't see anything, open or not.
– Lio Elbammalf
7 hours ago
add a comment |
You already seem to know the scientific perspective on this, but perhaps it's still worth elaborating a bit on it.
You can define a second as the amount of time that passes between two ticks of the second hand of a clock. Our modern definition of the second is essentially a more precise version of the same idea, where the oscillations of the radiation emitted by a suitable atom play the role of the hand of the clock:
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.
So if nothing happens during your "second" in the whole universe—if no clock moves its hand and no electromagnetic wave oscillates—then no time has passed.
From a theoretical point of view, this hand of the clock or radiation does not necessarily itself need to be "real". It's enough to consider what would happen if such a clock or such radiation was present. An empty universe which contains no matter at all but in which times passes is perfectly conceivable by the laws of physics. Plain Minkowski spacetime is like that.
New contributor
1
An infinite Minkowski spacetime without any mass or energy content is entirely symmetric in space and time, which means that any point in spacetime is exactly the same as any other. The value of the time (or space) coordinate then becomes entirely meaningless, and might as well be done away with. In this sense, I argue the exact opposite of your last paragraph is true.
– RQM
8 hours ago
1
As an addition - if no electromagnetic waves oscillate then that eye won't see anything, open or not.
– Lio Elbammalf
7 hours ago
add a comment |
You already seem to know the scientific perspective on this, but perhaps it's still worth elaborating a bit on it.
You can define a second as the amount of time that passes between two ticks of the second hand of a clock. Our modern definition of the second is essentially a more precise version of the same idea, where the oscillations of the radiation emitted by a suitable atom play the role of the hand of the clock:
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.
So if nothing happens during your "second" in the whole universe—if no clock moves its hand and no electromagnetic wave oscillates—then no time has passed.
From a theoretical point of view, this hand of the clock or radiation does not necessarily itself need to be "real". It's enough to consider what would happen if such a clock or such radiation was present. An empty universe which contains no matter at all but in which times passes is perfectly conceivable by the laws of physics. Plain Minkowski spacetime is like that.
New contributor
You already seem to know the scientific perspective on this, but perhaps it's still worth elaborating a bit on it.
You can define a second as the amount of time that passes between two ticks of the second hand of a clock. Our modern definition of the second is essentially a more precise version of the same idea, where the oscillations of the radiation emitted by a suitable atom play the role of the hand of the clock:
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.
So if nothing happens during your "second" in the whole universe—if no clock moves its hand and no electromagnetic wave oscillates—then no time has passed.
From a theoretical point of view, this hand of the clock or radiation does not necessarily itself need to be "real". It's enough to consider what would happen if such a clock or such radiation was present. An empty universe which contains no matter at all but in which times passes is perfectly conceivable by the laws of physics. Plain Minkowski spacetime is like that.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
Tobias FritzTobias Fritz
2514
2514
New contributor
New contributor
1
An infinite Minkowski spacetime without any mass or energy content is entirely symmetric in space and time, which means that any point in spacetime is exactly the same as any other. The value of the time (or space) coordinate then becomes entirely meaningless, and might as well be done away with. In this sense, I argue the exact opposite of your last paragraph is true.
– RQM
8 hours ago
1
As an addition - if no electromagnetic waves oscillate then that eye won't see anything, open or not.
– Lio Elbammalf
7 hours ago
add a comment |
1
An infinite Minkowski spacetime without any mass or energy content is entirely symmetric in space and time, which means that any point in spacetime is exactly the same as any other. The value of the time (or space) coordinate then becomes entirely meaningless, and might as well be done away with. In this sense, I argue the exact opposite of your last paragraph is true.
– RQM
8 hours ago
1
As an addition - if no electromagnetic waves oscillate then that eye won't see anything, open or not.
– Lio Elbammalf
7 hours ago
1
1
An infinite Minkowski spacetime without any mass or energy content is entirely symmetric in space and time, which means that any point in spacetime is exactly the same as any other. The value of the time (or space) coordinate then becomes entirely meaningless, and might as well be done away with. In this sense, I argue the exact opposite of your last paragraph is true.
– RQM
8 hours ago
An infinite Minkowski spacetime without any mass or energy content is entirely symmetric in space and time, which means that any point in spacetime is exactly the same as any other. The value of the time (or space) coordinate then becomes entirely meaningless, and might as well be done away with. In this sense, I argue the exact opposite of your last paragraph is true.
– RQM
8 hours ago
1
1
As an addition - if no electromagnetic waves oscillate then that eye won't see anything, open or not.
– Lio Elbammalf
7 hours ago
As an addition - if no electromagnetic waves oscillate then that eye won't see anything, open or not.
– Lio Elbammalf
7 hours ago
add a comment |
You seem to be asking "what is time?".
If you are asking in the sense of our science of physics, then time is defined by its measurement: time is what a clock reads. Quite literally that. And since Einstein, that is a rather flexible definition. Anyways, it does not tell you anything about what time actually is. But by that definition, in your example, since the clock itself would freeze for a minute or million years as well, your "pause" would indeed not be relevant, and time (sic) would not progress until the clock continued moving.
If you are asking in the sense of "reality", then the answer is "nobody knows". We don't know enough about the universe to decide what things actually, really, really are, and physics does not change that in the least. This is not only true for time, but for anything at all. We only have mathematic/physical theories, which happen to not having been proven wrong yet, but all they do is make predictions about how certain measurements could turn out in certain experiments (our eyes are only measuring instruments as well). We arguably can never leave Plato's Cave, or at least we are quite far away from it.
If you asking in a philosophical sense, then the answer is up to you, really, to go by taste and opinion. People have come up with plenty of different interpretations.
add a comment |
You seem to be asking "what is time?".
If you are asking in the sense of our science of physics, then time is defined by its measurement: time is what a clock reads. Quite literally that. And since Einstein, that is a rather flexible definition. Anyways, it does not tell you anything about what time actually is. But by that definition, in your example, since the clock itself would freeze for a minute or million years as well, your "pause" would indeed not be relevant, and time (sic) would not progress until the clock continued moving.
If you are asking in the sense of "reality", then the answer is "nobody knows". We don't know enough about the universe to decide what things actually, really, really are, and physics does not change that in the least. This is not only true for time, but for anything at all. We only have mathematic/physical theories, which happen to not having been proven wrong yet, but all they do is make predictions about how certain measurements could turn out in certain experiments (our eyes are only measuring instruments as well). We arguably can never leave Plato's Cave, or at least we are quite far away from it.
If you asking in a philosophical sense, then the answer is up to you, really, to go by taste and opinion. People have come up with plenty of different interpretations.
add a comment |
You seem to be asking "what is time?".
If you are asking in the sense of our science of physics, then time is defined by its measurement: time is what a clock reads. Quite literally that. And since Einstein, that is a rather flexible definition. Anyways, it does not tell you anything about what time actually is. But by that definition, in your example, since the clock itself would freeze for a minute or million years as well, your "pause" would indeed not be relevant, and time (sic) would not progress until the clock continued moving.
If you are asking in the sense of "reality", then the answer is "nobody knows". We don't know enough about the universe to decide what things actually, really, really are, and physics does not change that in the least. This is not only true for time, but for anything at all. We only have mathematic/physical theories, which happen to not having been proven wrong yet, but all they do is make predictions about how certain measurements could turn out in certain experiments (our eyes are only measuring instruments as well). We arguably can never leave Plato's Cave, or at least we are quite far away from it.
If you asking in a philosophical sense, then the answer is up to you, really, to go by taste and opinion. People have come up with plenty of different interpretations.
You seem to be asking "what is time?".
If you are asking in the sense of our science of physics, then time is defined by its measurement: time is what a clock reads. Quite literally that. And since Einstein, that is a rather flexible definition. Anyways, it does not tell you anything about what time actually is. But by that definition, in your example, since the clock itself would freeze for a minute or million years as well, your "pause" would indeed not be relevant, and time (sic) would not progress until the clock continued moving.
If you are asking in the sense of "reality", then the answer is "nobody knows". We don't know enough about the universe to decide what things actually, really, really are, and physics does not change that in the least. This is not only true for time, but for anything at all. We only have mathematic/physical theories, which happen to not having been proven wrong yet, but all they do is make predictions about how certain measurements could turn out in certain experiments (our eyes are only measuring instruments as well). We arguably can never leave Plato's Cave, or at least we are quite far away from it.
If you asking in a philosophical sense, then the answer is up to you, really, to go by taste and opinion. People have come up with plenty of different interpretations.
edited 10 hours ago
answered 21 hours ago
AnoEAnoE
56627
56627
add a comment |
add a comment |
The OP asks the following questions:
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
Bradley Dowden surveys two perspectives, substantivalism and relationalism, with regards to the question whether time requires change:
Substantivalism is the thesis that space and time exist independently of physical material and its events.
Relationism is the thesis that space is only a set of relationships among existing physical material, and time is a set of relationships among the events of that physical material.
Dowden notes that "Relationism is inconsistent with substantivalism; they both cannot be true, although they both could be false." Both sides agree that time cannot be measured without change. The disagreement is whether time exists without change. The substantivalist can have an "empty time". The relationist cannot.
The difference between these two views goes back to Plato, a substantivalist, and Aristotle, a relationist. More recently Newton was a substantivalist and Leibniz a relationist.
Leibniz claimed that Newton's substantivalism violated the Law of the Identity of Indiscernibles and the Law of Sufficient Reason. Leibniz argued that if God transformed the world in space or time but changed nothing else this would be a different world for Newton, but not for Leibniz, and there would be no reason for God to do something like that.
Kant sided with Newton and Ernst Mach sided with Leibniz. Einstein took both positions: initially a relationist and later a substantivalist.
Dowden offers a modern defense of substantivalism using fields:
Another defense of substantivalism says that what physicists call empty space is an energetic and active field. There is no region of the field where there could be empty time in the relationist sense of Leibniz.
The answer to the OP's question is a current controversy between substantivalism and relationism with a reminder from Dowden that both sides could be wrong.
Bradley Dowden, "Time" Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://www.iep.utm.edu/time/
Thank you, very useful!
– Francesco D'Isa
3 hours ago
add a comment |
The OP asks the following questions:
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
Bradley Dowden surveys two perspectives, substantivalism and relationalism, with regards to the question whether time requires change:
Substantivalism is the thesis that space and time exist independently of physical material and its events.
Relationism is the thesis that space is only a set of relationships among existing physical material, and time is a set of relationships among the events of that physical material.
Dowden notes that "Relationism is inconsistent with substantivalism; they both cannot be true, although they both could be false." Both sides agree that time cannot be measured without change. The disagreement is whether time exists without change. The substantivalist can have an "empty time". The relationist cannot.
The difference between these two views goes back to Plato, a substantivalist, and Aristotle, a relationist. More recently Newton was a substantivalist and Leibniz a relationist.
Leibniz claimed that Newton's substantivalism violated the Law of the Identity of Indiscernibles and the Law of Sufficient Reason. Leibniz argued that if God transformed the world in space or time but changed nothing else this would be a different world for Newton, but not for Leibniz, and there would be no reason for God to do something like that.
Kant sided with Newton and Ernst Mach sided with Leibniz. Einstein took both positions: initially a relationist and later a substantivalist.
Dowden offers a modern defense of substantivalism using fields:
Another defense of substantivalism says that what physicists call empty space is an energetic and active field. There is no region of the field where there could be empty time in the relationist sense of Leibniz.
The answer to the OP's question is a current controversy between substantivalism and relationism with a reminder from Dowden that both sides could be wrong.
Bradley Dowden, "Time" Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://www.iep.utm.edu/time/
Thank you, very useful!
– Francesco D'Isa
3 hours ago
add a comment |
The OP asks the following questions:
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
Bradley Dowden surveys two perspectives, substantivalism and relationalism, with regards to the question whether time requires change:
Substantivalism is the thesis that space and time exist independently of physical material and its events.
Relationism is the thesis that space is only a set of relationships among existing physical material, and time is a set of relationships among the events of that physical material.
Dowden notes that "Relationism is inconsistent with substantivalism; they both cannot be true, although they both could be false." Both sides agree that time cannot be measured without change. The disagreement is whether time exists without change. The substantivalist can have an "empty time". The relationist cannot.
The difference between these two views goes back to Plato, a substantivalist, and Aristotle, a relationist. More recently Newton was a substantivalist and Leibniz a relationist.
Leibniz claimed that Newton's substantivalism violated the Law of the Identity of Indiscernibles and the Law of Sufficient Reason. Leibniz argued that if God transformed the world in space or time but changed nothing else this would be a different world for Newton, but not for Leibniz, and there would be no reason for God to do something like that.
Kant sided with Newton and Ernst Mach sided with Leibniz. Einstein took both positions: initially a relationist and later a substantivalist.
Dowden offers a modern defense of substantivalism using fields:
Another defense of substantivalism says that what physicists call empty space is an energetic and active field. There is no region of the field where there could be empty time in the relationist sense of Leibniz.
The answer to the OP's question is a current controversy between substantivalism and relationism with a reminder from Dowden that both sides could be wrong.
Bradley Dowden, "Time" Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://www.iep.utm.edu/time/
The OP asks the following questions:
Does the minimum unit of time coincide with the smallest change? Does time dissolve without differences between things?
Bradley Dowden surveys two perspectives, substantivalism and relationalism, with regards to the question whether time requires change:
Substantivalism is the thesis that space and time exist independently of physical material and its events.
Relationism is the thesis that space is only a set of relationships among existing physical material, and time is a set of relationships among the events of that physical material.
Dowden notes that "Relationism is inconsistent with substantivalism; they both cannot be true, although they both could be false." Both sides agree that time cannot be measured without change. The disagreement is whether time exists without change. The substantivalist can have an "empty time". The relationist cannot.
The difference between these two views goes back to Plato, a substantivalist, and Aristotle, a relationist. More recently Newton was a substantivalist and Leibniz a relationist.
Leibniz claimed that Newton's substantivalism violated the Law of the Identity of Indiscernibles and the Law of Sufficient Reason. Leibniz argued that if God transformed the world in space or time but changed nothing else this would be a different world for Newton, but not for Leibniz, and there would be no reason for God to do something like that.
Kant sided with Newton and Ernst Mach sided with Leibniz. Einstein took both positions: initially a relationist and later a substantivalist.
Dowden offers a modern defense of substantivalism using fields:
Another defense of substantivalism says that what physicists call empty space is an energetic and active field. There is no region of the field where there could be empty time in the relationist sense of Leibniz.
The answer to the OP's question is a current controversy between substantivalism and relationism with a reminder from Dowden that both sides could be wrong.
Bradley Dowden, "Time" Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://www.iep.utm.edu/time/
edited 1 hour ago
answered 6 hours ago
Frank HubenyFrank Hubeny
7,23251444
7,23251444
Thank you, very useful!
– Francesco D'Isa
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Thank you, very useful!
– Francesco D'Isa
3 hours ago
Thank you, very useful!
– Francesco D'Isa
3 hours ago
Thank you, very useful!
– Francesco D'Isa
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Since one might say that one of the important properties of time is to allow for change; to then suppose time exists, but that there is no change, rather goes against this.
It's a logical possibility, but then so is a universe with nothing in it; or indeed, no universe at all.
add a comment |
Since one might say that one of the important properties of time is to allow for change; to then suppose time exists, but that there is no change, rather goes against this.
It's a logical possibility, but then so is a universe with nothing in it; or indeed, no universe at all.
add a comment |
Since one might say that one of the important properties of time is to allow for change; to then suppose time exists, but that there is no change, rather goes against this.
It's a logical possibility, but then so is a universe with nothing in it; or indeed, no universe at all.
Since one might say that one of the important properties of time is to allow for change; to then suppose time exists, but that there is no change, rather goes against this.
It's a logical possibility, but then so is a universe with nothing in it; or indeed, no universe at all.
answered yesterday
Mozibur UllahMozibur Ullah
31.7k951150
31.7k951150
add a comment |
add a comment |
Intuitively speaking, I find it hard for there to be time on the lapse you get at with the description, because the being that is that lapse lacks of numerous properties of time. For example, it lacks temporal asymmetry between events (any event occur at all), etc.
I am deducing this from Aristotle's interpretation of time in his Physics IV 10-14, where basically his strong claim is that time is composed of points that we mark in changes (as if we could represent changes in a line of real numbers, with a present (or now as he calls it) being a point in the line):
"when... the soul says the nows are two, the one before and the other after, then it is and this it is that we say is time" Physics (219a27-9).
For Aristotle, we know that time passes when we perceive two parts of a change, where an asymmetrical relation holds between them (one before the other), which we (our soul) mark as two nows with the correspondent temporal asymmetry (one before the other).
Therefore, if no change is contained in the lapse, no possible change part is in the lapse. This means there is no asymmetrical relation between parts that could possibly mark a correspondent relation between nows, that would mark the passing of time.
New contributor
If you have a reference that takes a similar view to your answer this would support your answer and give the reader a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
21 hours ago
add a comment |
Intuitively speaking, I find it hard for there to be time on the lapse you get at with the description, because the being that is that lapse lacks of numerous properties of time. For example, it lacks temporal asymmetry between events (any event occur at all), etc.
I am deducing this from Aristotle's interpretation of time in his Physics IV 10-14, where basically his strong claim is that time is composed of points that we mark in changes (as if we could represent changes in a line of real numbers, with a present (or now as he calls it) being a point in the line):
"when... the soul says the nows are two, the one before and the other after, then it is and this it is that we say is time" Physics (219a27-9).
For Aristotle, we know that time passes when we perceive two parts of a change, where an asymmetrical relation holds between them (one before the other), which we (our soul) mark as two nows with the correspondent temporal asymmetry (one before the other).
Therefore, if no change is contained in the lapse, no possible change part is in the lapse. This means there is no asymmetrical relation between parts that could possibly mark a correspondent relation between nows, that would mark the passing of time.
New contributor
If you have a reference that takes a similar view to your answer this would support your answer and give the reader a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
21 hours ago
add a comment |
Intuitively speaking, I find it hard for there to be time on the lapse you get at with the description, because the being that is that lapse lacks of numerous properties of time. For example, it lacks temporal asymmetry between events (any event occur at all), etc.
I am deducing this from Aristotle's interpretation of time in his Physics IV 10-14, where basically his strong claim is that time is composed of points that we mark in changes (as if we could represent changes in a line of real numbers, with a present (or now as he calls it) being a point in the line):
"when... the soul says the nows are two, the one before and the other after, then it is and this it is that we say is time" Physics (219a27-9).
For Aristotle, we know that time passes when we perceive two parts of a change, where an asymmetrical relation holds between them (one before the other), which we (our soul) mark as two nows with the correspondent temporal asymmetry (one before the other).
Therefore, if no change is contained in the lapse, no possible change part is in the lapse. This means there is no asymmetrical relation between parts that could possibly mark a correspondent relation between nows, that would mark the passing of time.
New contributor
Intuitively speaking, I find it hard for there to be time on the lapse you get at with the description, because the being that is that lapse lacks of numerous properties of time. For example, it lacks temporal asymmetry between events (any event occur at all), etc.
I am deducing this from Aristotle's interpretation of time in his Physics IV 10-14, where basically his strong claim is that time is composed of points that we mark in changes (as if we could represent changes in a line of real numbers, with a present (or now as he calls it) being a point in the line):
"when... the soul says the nows are two, the one before and the other after, then it is and this it is that we say is time" Physics (219a27-9).
For Aristotle, we know that time passes when we perceive two parts of a change, where an asymmetrical relation holds between them (one before the other), which we (our soul) mark as two nows with the correspondent temporal asymmetry (one before the other).
Therefore, if no change is contained in the lapse, no possible change part is in the lapse. This means there is no asymmetrical relation between parts that could possibly mark a correspondent relation between nows, that would mark the passing of time.
New contributor
edited 20 hours ago
New contributor
answered 21 hours ago
diego araujodiego araujo
1193
1193
New contributor
New contributor
If you have a reference that takes a similar view to your answer this would support your answer and give the reader a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
21 hours ago
add a comment |
If you have a reference that takes a similar view to your answer this would support your answer and give the reader a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
21 hours ago
If you have a reference that takes a similar view to your answer this would support your answer and give the reader a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
21 hours ago
If you have a reference that takes a similar view to your answer this would support your answer and give the reader a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
21 hours ago
add a comment |
Time is conceived by mind. There is no absolute time only brownian movement everywhere. We are scanning the world through our eyes at a rate of around 16 Hz. For a honey bee it is higher. So in Honey bee's perception we are slow. We have chosen some band width to scan this world and relatively we are calculating. Time also relative. one second can be dilated to even millions of years if we are that much faster.
New contributor
Would you say there is an upper limit to "scan time", like for instance 1/planck time?
– christo183
9 hours ago
Where do you get that 16 Hz figure from, and how does it determine perceived time? If I were to shield your eyes from light, except for a second every 10 seconds, would you claim your perception of time would fundamentally change?
– RQM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
Time is conceived by mind. There is no absolute time only brownian movement everywhere. We are scanning the world through our eyes at a rate of around 16 Hz. For a honey bee it is higher. So in Honey bee's perception we are slow. We have chosen some band width to scan this world and relatively we are calculating. Time also relative. one second can be dilated to even millions of years if we are that much faster.
New contributor
Would you say there is an upper limit to "scan time", like for instance 1/planck time?
– christo183
9 hours ago
Where do you get that 16 Hz figure from, and how does it determine perceived time? If I were to shield your eyes from light, except for a second every 10 seconds, would you claim your perception of time would fundamentally change?
– RQM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
Time is conceived by mind. There is no absolute time only brownian movement everywhere. We are scanning the world through our eyes at a rate of around 16 Hz. For a honey bee it is higher. So in Honey bee's perception we are slow. We have chosen some band width to scan this world and relatively we are calculating. Time also relative. one second can be dilated to even millions of years if we are that much faster.
New contributor
Time is conceived by mind. There is no absolute time only brownian movement everywhere. We are scanning the world through our eyes at a rate of around 16 Hz. For a honey bee it is higher. So in Honey bee's perception we are slow. We have chosen some band width to scan this world and relatively we are calculating. Time also relative. one second can be dilated to even millions of years if we are that much faster.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 10 hours ago
DHANANJAYANDHANANJAYAN
211
211
New contributor
New contributor
Would you say there is an upper limit to "scan time", like for instance 1/planck time?
– christo183
9 hours ago
Where do you get that 16 Hz figure from, and how does it determine perceived time? If I were to shield your eyes from light, except for a second every 10 seconds, would you claim your perception of time would fundamentally change?
– RQM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
Would you say there is an upper limit to "scan time", like for instance 1/planck time?
– christo183
9 hours ago
Where do you get that 16 Hz figure from, and how does it determine perceived time? If I were to shield your eyes from light, except for a second every 10 seconds, would you claim your perception of time would fundamentally change?
– RQM
9 hours ago
Would you say there is an upper limit to "scan time", like for instance 1/planck time?
– christo183
9 hours ago
Would you say there is an upper limit to "scan time", like for instance 1/planck time?
– christo183
9 hours ago
Where do you get that 16 Hz figure from, and how does it determine perceived time? If I were to shield your eyes from light, except for a second every 10 seconds, would you claim your perception of time would fundamentally change?
– RQM
9 hours ago
Where do you get that 16 Hz figure from, and how does it determine perceived time? If I were to shield your eyes from light, except for a second every 10 seconds, would you claim your perception of time would fundamentally change?
– RQM
9 hours ago
add a comment |
Further expanding upon the computer simulation idea brought up in MattClarke's answer: One interesting idea is the idea of mind uploading. If human consciousness happens to be Turing-compatible, then it
would be theoretically possible to convert a human mind into a piece of software.
Then, just like normal software, the host computer would be able to arbitrarily suspend and resume the simulation program. Modern operating systems can run hundreds of processes simultaneously because it has a scheduler that is constantly suspending and resuming processes, giving each process a fair share of computing time, i.e. timeslicing.
The running process has no awareness of whether it has been sliced or not; it just continues normally. So in that sense, no time has passed for it, yet time has passed in the outside world. However, the process might realize that it is being sliced by observing skips in the system clock, for example. So there was a change. But if you completely sandbox the process, it would not be able to perceive time passing any differently than normal, no matter how often and how long you suspend it.
There's a science fiction novel called Permutation City that explores lots of interesting implications of simulated minds:
Within the story, "Copies" – digital renderings of human brains with complete subjective consciousness, live within VR environments after a process of "scanning". Copies are the only objects within VR environments that are simulated in full detail, everything else being produced with varying levels of generalisation, lossy compression, and hashing at all times.
Much of the plot deals directly with the "lived" experience of Copies, most of whom are copies of wealthy billionaires suffering terminal illnesses or fatal accidents, who spend their existences in VR worlds of their creating, usually maintained by trust funds, which independently own and operate large computing resources for their sakes, separated physically and economically from most of the rest of the world's computing power, which is privatized as a fungible commodity. Although the wealthiest copies face no financial difficulties, they can still be threatened because copies lack political and legal rights (they are considered software), especially where the global economy is in recession. Hence they cannot afford to retreat into solipsism and ignore what is happening in the real world.
The story also explores the ideas of time slowdowns and suspension in the context of simulation vs. outside world:
At the opposite end from the wealthy Copies are those who can only afford to live in the virtual equivalent of "Slums", being bounced around the globe to the cheapest physical computing available at any given time in order to save money, while running at much slower speeds compared to the wealthy Copies. Their slowdown rate depends on how much computer power their meager assets can afford, as computer power is traded on a global exchange and goes to the highest bidder at any point in time. When they cannot afford to be "run" at all, they can be frozen as a "snapshot" until computer power is relatively affordable again. A Copy whose financial assets can only generate sufficient interest to run at a very slow rate is stuck in a rut because he/she/it becomes unemployable and is unable to generate new income, which may lead to a downward spiral.
The concept of solipsism is also examined prominently, with many less-wealthy Copies attending social functions called Slow Clubs, where socialising Copies agree to synchronise with the slowest person present. Many of these less-wealthy Copies become completely deracinated from their former lives and from world events, or else become Witnesses, who spend their time observing (at considerable time lapse) world events unfold, at the cost of any meaningful relationships with their fellow Copies. A subculture of lower/middle-class Copies, calling themselves Solipsist Nation after a philosophical work by their nominal founder, choose to completely repudiate the "real" world and any Copies still attached to it, reprogramming their models-of-brains and their VR environments in order to design themselves into their own personal vision of paradise, of whatever size and detail, disregarding slowdown in the process.
New contributor
add a comment |
Further expanding upon the computer simulation idea brought up in MattClarke's answer: One interesting idea is the idea of mind uploading. If human consciousness happens to be Turing-compatible, then it
would be theoretically possible to convert a human mind into a piece of software.
Then, just like normal software, the host computer would be able to arbitrarily suspend and resume the simulation program. Modern operating systems can run hundreds of processes simultaneously because it has a scheduler that is constantly suspending and resuming processes, giving each process a fair share of computing time, i.e. timeslicing.
The running process has no awareness of whether it has been sliced or not; it just continues normally. So in that sense, no time has passed for it, yet time has passed in the outside world. However, the process might realize that it is being sliced by observing skips in the system clock, for example. So there was a change. But if you completely sandbox the process, it would not be able to perceive time passing any differently than normal, no matter how often and how long you suspend it.
There's a science fiction novel called Permutation City that explores lots of interesting implications of simulated minds:
Within the story, "Copies" – digital renderings of human brains with complete subjective consciousness, live within VR environments after a process of "scanning". Copies are the only objects within VR environments that are simulated in full detail, everything else being produced with varying levels of generalisation, lossy compression, and hashing at all times.
Much of the plot deals directly with the "lived" experience of Copies, most of whom are copies of wealthy billionaires suffering terminal illnesses or fatal accidents, who spend their existences in VR worlds of their creating, usually maintained by trust funds, which independently own and operate large computing resources for their sakes, separated physically and economically from most of the rest of the world's computing power, which is privatized as a fungible commodity. Although the wealthiest copies face no financial difficulties, they can still be threatened because copies lack political and legal rights (they are considered software), especially where the global economy is in recession. Hence they cannot afford to retreat into solipsism and ignore what is happening in the real world.
The story also explores the ideas of time slowdowns and suspension in the context of simulation vs. outside world:
At the opposite end from the wealthy Copies are those who can only afford to live in the virtual equivalent of "Slums", being bounced around the globe to the cheapest physical computing available at any given time in order to save money, while running at much slower speeds compared to the wealthy Copies. Their slowdown rate depends on how much computer power their meager assets can afford, as computer power is traded on a global exchange and goes to the highest bidder at any point in time. When they cannot afford to be "run" at all, they can be frozen as a "snapshot" until computer power is relatively affordable again. A Copy whose financial assets can only generate sufficient interest to run at a very slow rate is stuck in a rut because he/she/it becomes unemployable and is unable to generate new income, which may lead to a downward spiral.
The concept of solipsism is also examined prominently, with many less-wealthy Copies attending social functions called Slow Clubs, where socialising Copies agree to synchronise with the slowest person present. Many of these less-wealthy Copies become completely deracinated from their former lives and from world events, or else become Witnesses, who spend their time observing (at considerable time lapse) world events unfold, at the cost of any meaningful relationships with their fellow Copies. A subculture of lower/middle-class Copies, calling themselves Solipsist Nation after a philosophical work by their nominal founder, choose to completely repudiate the "real" world and any Copies still attached to it, reprogramming their models-of-brains and their VR environments in order to design themselves into their own personal vision of paradise, of whatever size and detail, disregarding slowdown in the process.
New contributor
add a comment |
Further expanding upon the computer simulation idea brought up in MattClarke's answer: One interesting idea is the idea of mind uploading. If human consciousness happens to be Turing-compatible, then it
would be theoretically possible to convert a human mind into a piece of software.
Then, just like normal software, the host computer would be able to arbitrarily suspend and resume the simulation program. Modern operating systems can run hundreds of processes simultaneously because it has a scheduler that is constantly suspending and resuming processes, giving each process a fair share of computing time, i.e. timeslicing.
The running process has no awareness of whether it has been sliced or not; it just continues normally. So in that sense, no time has passed for it, yet time has passed in the outside world. However, the process might realize that it is being sliced by observing skips in the system clock, for example. So there was a change. But if you completely sandbox the process, it would not be able to perceive time passing any differently than normal, no matter how often and how long you suspend it.
There's a science fiction novel called Permutation City that explores lots of interesting implications of simulated minds:
Within the story, "Copies" – digital renderings of human brains with complete subjective consciousness, live within VR environments after a process of "scanning". Copies are the only objects within VR environments that are simulated in full detail, everything else being produced with varying levels of generalisation, lossy compression, and hashing at all times.
Much of the plot deals directly with the "lived" experience of Copies, most of whom are copies of wealthy billionaires suffering terminal illnesses or fatal accidents, who spend their existences in VR worlds of their creating, usually maintained by trust funds, which independently own and operate large computing resources for their sakes, separated physically and economically from most of the rest of the world's computing power, which is privatized as a fungible commodity. Although the wealthiest copies face no financial difficulties, they can still be threatened because copies lack political and legal rights (they are considered software), especially where the global economy is in recession. Hence they cannot afford to retreat into solipsism and ignore what is happening in the real world.
The story also explores the ideas of time slowdowns and suspension in the context of simulation vs. outside world:
At the opposite end from the wealthy Copies are those who can only afford to live in the virtual equivalent of "Slums", being bounced around the globe to the cheapest physical computing available at any given time in order to save money, while running at much slower speeds compared to the wealthy Copies. Their slowdown rate depends on how much computer power their meager assets can afford, as computer power is traded on a global exchange and goes to the highest bidder at any point in time. When they cannot afford to be "run" at all, they can be frozen as a "snapshot" until computer power is relatively affordable again. A Copy whose financial assets can only generate sufficient interest to run at a very slow rate is stuck in a rut because he/she/it becomes unemployable and is unable to generate new income, which may lead to a downward spiral.
The concept of solipsism is also examined prominently, with many less-wealthy Copies attending social functions called Slow Clubs, where socialising Copies agree to synchronise with the slowest person present. Many of these less-wealthy Copies become completely deracinated from their former lives and from world events, or else become Witnesses, who spend their time observing (at considerable time lapse) world events unfold, at the cost of any meaningful relationships with their fellow Copies. A subculture of lower/middle-class Copies, calling themselves Solipsist Nation after a philosophical work by their nominal founder, choose to completely repudiate the "real" world and any Copies still attached to it, reprogramming their models-of-brains and their VR environments in order to design themselves into their own personal vision of paradise, of whatever size and detail, disregarding slowdown in the process.
New contributor
Further expanding upon the computer simulation idea brought up in MattClarke's answer: One interesting idea is the idea of mind uploading. If human consciousness happens to be Turing-compatible, then it
would be theoretically possible to convert a human mind into a piece of software.
Then, just like normal software, the host computer would be able to arbitrarily suspend and resume the simulation program. Modern operating systems can run hundreds of processes simultaneously because it has a scheduler that is constantly suspending and resuming processes, giving each process a fair share of computing time, i.e. timeslicing.
The running process has no awareness of whether it has been sliced or not; it just continues normally. So in that sense, no time has passed for it, yet time has passed in the outside world. However, the process might realize that it is being sliced by observing skips in the system clock, for example. So there was a change. But if you completely sandbox the process, it would not be able to perceive time passing any differently than normal, no matter how often and how long you suspend it.
There's a science fiction novel called Permutation City that explores lots of interesting implications of simulated minds:
Within the story, "Copies" – digital renderings of human brains with complete subjective consciousness, live within VR environments after a process of "scanning". Copies are the only objects within VR environments that are simulated in full detail, everything else being produced with varying levels of generalisation, lossy compression, and hashing at all times.
Much of the plot deals directly with the "lived" experience of Copies, most of whom are copies of wealthy billionaires suffering terminal illnesses or fatal accidents, who spend their existences in VR worlds of their creating, usually maintained by trust funds, which independently own and operate large computing resources for their sakes, separated physically and economically from most of the rest of the world's computing power, which is privatized as a fungible commodity. Although the wealthiest copies face no financial difficulties, they can still be threatened because copies lack political and legal rights (they are considered software), especially where the global economy is in recession. Hence they cannot afford to retreat into solipsism and ignore what is happening in the real world.
The story also explores the ideas of time slowdowns and suspension in the context of simulation vs. outside world:
At the opposite end from the wealthy Copies are those who can only afford to live in the virtual equivalent of "Slums", being bounced around the globe to the cheapest physical computing available at any given time in order to save money, while running at much slower speeds compared to the wealthy Copies. Their slowdown rate depends on how much computer power their meager assets can afford, as computer power is traded on a global exchange and goes to the highest bidder at any point in time. When they cannot afford to be "run" at all, they can be frozen as a "snapshot" until computer power is relatively affordable again. A Copy whose financial assets can only generate sufficient interest to run at a very slow rate is stuck in a rut because he/she/it becomes unemployable and is unable to generate new income, which may lead to a downward spiral.
The concept of solipsism is also examined prominently, with many less-wealthy Copies attending social functions called Slow Clubs, where socialising Copies agree to synchronise with the slowest person present. Many of these less-wealthy Copies become completely deracinated from their former lives and from world events, or else become Witnesses, who spend their time observing (at considerable time lapse) world events unfold, at the cost of any meaningful relationships with their fellow Copies. A subculture of lower/middle-class Copies, calling themselves Solipsist Nation after a philosophical work by their nominal founder, choose to completely repudiate the "real" world and any Copies still attached to it, reprogramming their models-of-brains and their VR environments in order to design themselves into their own personal vision of paradise, of whatever size and detail, disregarding slowdown in the process.
New contributor
edited 1 hour ago
New contributor
answered 6 hours ago
ahiijnyahiijny
1214
1214
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
I once read a thought experiment (I wish I could remember where see below) which attempted to establish that there is a subtle difference between the passage of time and change. It basically went like this:
Imagine a hypothetical universe which is composed four islands separated by force fields that no matter could pass through, but which was permeable by light and radio waves. Travel and trade was not possible between islands, but they can freely communicate with one another.
Every so often, a pink cloud would appear over one of the islands, and would sit there for 1 week. After 1 week, from the perspective of the other islands, the island which had observed the cloud, would cease all radio communications and their section of the universe would effectively go 'dark' for a period of 1 week. However, from the perspective of the people living on that island, the cloud would simply disappear without any other perceivable change, and the other three islands' clocks will have been advanced by 1 week. Scientists studying this phenomena have been unable to detect the 'missing time' by any physical means other than by comparing their clocks with those on other islands. The universe has always been this way, and its residence just accept it.
One day, a pink cloud appears over all four islands simultaneously. After one week, the clouds simply disappear and all the clocks in every island remain in sync. No one will have been able to detect the 'missing time', even though it's perfectly reasonable for the residents of this universe to infer that it existed.
Of course, this thought experiment takes place in a very different universe than our own, it doesn't address the question about whether or not such a scenario is physically possible in our universe. The point of the thought experiment is to show that from a purely philosophical perspective it can be meaningful to say:
For some period of time, nothing happened.
Update: Francesco D'Isa pointed me in the right direction. The original thought experiment was proposed by philosopher Sydney Shoemaker in 1969 in "Time without Change".
New contributor
Thank you! Maybe the original is this one? iep.utm.edu/time/#SH5. Anyway I disagree: here we inductively suppose that if time stops somewhere for a certain rule or a certain event (the pink cloud), it can stop everywhere in a similar way. But it's impossible to state that time really stopped: not only we are not able to spot it, but there's no difference between a fake rule/cloud and a supposed real one! The only difference can be stated from a perspective outside time (but then something would keep on changing, in order to spot it)
– Francesco D'Isa
39 mins ago
@FrancescoD'Isa That's it. You're correct, it's impossible to actually know if time actually stopped for all observers. And philosophers could still argue that if no one observed the passage of time, it never happened (even if the clouds were real). The question is, is it reasonable to infer that time stopped for all observers? I think it makes a decent case. If a resident of this universe were making bets one whether a time would stop this month, it would be reasonable to try to collect on that bet, even if the only actual observed phenomena is the cloud.
– p.s.w.g
26 mins ago
add a comment |
I once read a thought experiment (I wish I could remember where see below) which attempted to establish that there is a subtle difference between the passage of time and change. It basically went like this:
Imagine a hypothetical universe which is composed four islands separated by force fields that no matter could pass through, but which was permeable by light and radio waves. Travel and trade was not possible between islands, but they can freely communicate with one another.
Every so often, a pink cloud would appear over one of the islands, and would sit there for 1 week. After 1 week, from the perspective of the other islands, the island which had observed the cloud, would cease all radio communications and their section of the universe would effectively go 'dark' for a period of 1 week. However, from the perspective of the people living on that island, the cloud would simply disappear without any other perceivable change, and the other three islands' clocks will have been advanced by 1 week. Scientists studying this phenomena have been unable to detect the 'missing time' by any physical means other than by comparing their clocks with those on other islands. The universe has always been this way, and its residence just accept it.
One day, a pink cloud appears over all four islands simultaneously. After one week, the clouds simply disappear and all the clocks in every island remain in sync. No one will have been able to detect the 'missing time', even though it's perfectly reasonable for the residents of this universe to infer that it existed.
Of course, this thought experiment takes place in a very different universe than our own, it doesn't address the question about whether or not such a scenario is physically possible in our universe. The point of the thought experiment is to show that from a purely philosophical perspective it can be meaningful to say:
For some period of time, nothing happened.
Update: Francesco D'Isa pointed me in the right direction. The original thought experiment was proposed by philosopher Sydney Shoemaker in 1969 in "Time without Change".
New contributor
Thank you! Maybe the original is this one? iep.utm.edu/time/#SH5. Anyway I disagree: here we inductively suppose that if time stops somewhere for a certain rule or a certain event (the pink cloud), it can stop everywhere in a similar way. But it's impossible to state that time really stopped: not only we are not able to spot it, but there's no difference between a fake rule/cloud and a supposed real one! The only difference can be stated from a perspective outside time (but then something would keep on changing, in order to spot it)
– Francesco D'Isa
39 mins ago
@FrancescoD'Isa That's it. You're correct, it's impossible to actually know if time actually stopped for all observers. And philosophers could still argue that if no one observed the passage of time, it never happened (even if the clouds were real). The question is, is it reasonable to infer that time stopped for all observers? I think it makes a decent case. If a resident of this universe were making bets one whether a time would stop this month, it would be reasonable to try to collect on that bet, even if the only actual observed phenomena is the cloud.
– p.s.w.g
26 mins ago
add a comment |
I once read a thought experiment (I wish I could remember where see below) which attempted to establish that there is a subtle difference between the passage of time and change. It basically went like this:
Imagine a hypothetical universe which is composed four islands separated by force fields that no matter could pass through, but which was permeable by light and radio waves. Travel and trade was not possible between islands, but they can freely communicate with one another.
Every so often, a pink cloud would appear over one of the islands, and would sit there for 1 week. After 1 week, from the perspective of the other islands, the island which had observed the cloud, would cease all radio communications and their section of the universe would effectively go 'dark' for a period of 1 week. However, from the perspective of the people living on that island, the cloud would simply disappear without any other perceivable change, and the other three islands' clocks will have been advanced by 1 week. Scientists studying this phenomena have been unable to detect the 'missing time' by any physical means other than by comparing their clocks with those on other islands. The universe has always been this way, and its residence just accept it.
One day, a pink cloud appears over all four islands simultaneously. After one week, the clouds simply disappear and all the clocks in every island remain in sync. No one will have been able to detect the 'missing time', even though it's perfectly reasonable for the residents of this universe to infer that it existed.
Of course, this thought experiment takes place in a very different universe than our own, it doesn't address the question about whether or not such a scenario is physically possible in our universe. The point of the thought experiment is to show that from a purely philosophical perspective it can be meaningful to say:
For some period of time, nothing happened.
Update: Francesco D'Isa pointed me in the right direction. The original thought experiment was proposed by philosopher Sydney Shoemaker in 1969 in "Time without Change".
New contributor
I once read a thought experiment (I wish I could remember where see below) which attempted to establish that there is a subtle difference between the passage of time and change. It basically went like this:
Imagine a hypothetical universe which is composed four islands separated by force fields that no matter could pass through, but which was permeable by light and radio waves. Travel and trade was not possible between islands, but they can freely communicate with one another.
Every so often, a pink cloud would appear over one of the islands, and would sit there for 1 week. After 1 week, from the perspective of the other islands, the island which had observed the cloud, would cease all radio communications and their section of the universe would effectively go 'dark' for a period of 1 week. However, from the perspective of the people living on that island, the cloud would simply disappear without any other perceivable change, and the other three islands' clocks will have been advanced by 1 week. Scientists studying this phenomena have been unable to detect the 'missing time' by any physical means other than by comparing their clocks with those on other islands. The universe has always been this way, and its residence just accept it.
One day, a pink cloud appears over all four islands simultaneously. After one week, the clouds simply disappear and all the clocks in every island remain in sync. No one will have been able to detect the 'missing time', even though it's perfectly reasonable for the residents of this universe to infer that it existed.
Of course, this thought experiment takes place in a very different universe than our own, it doesn't address the question about whether or not such a scenario is physically possible in our universe. The point of the thought experiment is to show that from a purely philosophical perspective it can be meaningful to say:
For some period of time, nothing happened.
Update: Francesco D'Isa pointed me in the right direction. The original thought experiment was proposed by philosopher Sydney Shoemaker in 1969 in "Time without Change".
New contributor
edited 5 mins ago
New contributor
answered 55 mins ago
p.s.w.gp.s.w.g
1213
1213
New contributor
New contributor
Thank you! Maybe the original is this one? iep.utm.edu/time/#SH5. Anyway I disagree: here we inductively suppose that if time stops somewhere for a certain rule or a certain event (the pink cloud), it can stop everywhere in a similar way. But it's impossible to state that time really stopped: not only we are not able to spot it, but there's no difference between a fake rule/cloud and a supposed real one! The only difference can be stated from a perspective outside time (but then something would keep on changing, in order to spot it)
– Francesco D'Isa
39 mins ago
@FrancescoD'Isa That's it. You're correct, it's impossible to actually know if time actually stopped for all observers. And philosophers could still argue that if no one observed the passage of time, it never happened (even if the clouds were real). The question is, is it reasonable to infer that time stopped for all observers? I think it makes a decent case. If a resident of this universe were making bets one whether a time would stop this month, it would be reasonable to try to collect on that bet, even if the only actual observed phenomena is the cloud.
– p.s.w.g
26 mins ago
add a comment |
Thank you! Maybe the original is this one? iep.utm.edu/time/#SH5. Anyway I disagree: here we inductively suppose that if time stops somewhere for a certain rule or a certain event (the pink cloud), it can stop everywhere in a similar way. But it's impossible to state that time really stopped: not only we are not able to spot it, but there's no difference between a fake rule/cloud and a supposed real one! The only difference can be stated from a perspective outside time (but then something would keep on changing, in order to spot it)
– Francesco D'Isa
39 mins ago
@FrancescoD'Isa That's it. You're correct, it's impossible to actually know if time actually stopped for all observers. And philosophers could still argue that if no one observed the passage of time, it never happened (even if the clouds were real). The question is, is it reasonable to infer that time stopped for all observers? I think it makes a decent case. If a resident of this universe were making bets one whether a time would stop this month, it would be reasonable to try to collect on that bet, even if the only actual observed phenomena is the cloud.
– p.s.w.g
26 mins ago
Thank you! Maybe the original is this one? iep.utm.edu/time/#SH5. Anyway I disagree: here we inductively suppose that if time stops somewhere for a certain rule or a certain event (the pink cloud), it can stop everywhere in a similar way. But it's impossible to state that time really stopped: not only we are not able to spot it, but there's no difference between a fake rule/cloud and a supposed real one! The only difference can be stated from a perspective outside time (but then something would keep on changing, in order to spot it)
– Francesco D'Isa
39 mins ago
Thank you! Maybe the original is this one? iep.utm.edu/time/#SH5. Anyway I disagree: here we inductively suppose that if time stops somewhere for a certain rule or a certain event (the pink cloud), it can stop everywhere in a similar way. But it's impossible to state that time really stopped: not only we are not able to spot it, but there's no difference between a fake rule/cloud and a supposed real one! The only difference can be stated from a perspective outside time (but then something would keep on changing, in order to spot it)
– Francesco D'Isa
39 mins ago
@FrancescoD'Isa That's it. You're correct, it's impossible to actually know if time actually stopped for all observers. And philosophers could still argue that if no one observed the passage of time, it never happened (even if the clouds were real). The question is, is it reasonable to infer that time stopped for all observers? I think it makes a decent case. If a resident of this universe were making bets one whether a time would stop this month, it would be reasonable to try to collect on that bet, even if the only actual observed phenomena is the cloud.
– p.s.w.g
26 mins ago
@FrancescoD'Isa That's it. You're correct, it's impossible to actually know if time actually stopped for all observers. And philosophers could still argue that if no one observed the passage of time, it never happened (even if the clouds were real). The question is, is it reasonable to infer that time stopped for all observers? I think it makes a decent case. If a resident of this universe were making bets one whether a time would stop this month, it would be reasonable to try to collect on that bet, even if the only actual observed phenomena is the cloud.
– p.s.w.g
26 mins ago
add a comment |
Another way to pose the same question might be to imagine that this universe we experience is in fact a computer simulation. Some rich kid outside this universe has been playing SimUniverse on the home computer. When the rich kid's mum calls him/her/it for dinner s/h/it presses the pause button. Nothing happens in our universe until s/h/it un-pauses. Has any time actually passed? Would any of us notice?
I think the answer depends on whether you are inside the simulation or outside it. From our perspective inside the simulation there is no change and no time passes.
add a comment |
Another way to pose the same question might be to imagine that this universe we experience is in fact a computer simulation. Some rich kid outside this universe has been playing SimUniverse on the home computer. When the rich kid's mum calls him/her/it for dinner s/h/it presses the pause button. Nothing happens in our universe until s/h/it un-pauses. Has any time actually passed? Would any of us notice?
I think the answer depends on whether you are inside the simulation or outside it. From our perspective inside the simulation there is no change and no time passes.
add a comment |
Another way to pose the same question might be to imagine that this universe we experience is in fact a computer simulation. Some rich kid outside this universe has been playing SimUniverse on the home computer. When the rich kid's mum calls him/her/it for dinner s/h/it presses the pause button. Nothing happens in our universe until s/h/it un-pauses. Has any time actually passed? Would any of us notice?
I think the answer depends on whether you are inside the simulation or outside it. From our perspective inside the simulation there is no change and no time passes.
Another way to pose the same question might be to imagine that this universe we experience is in fact a computer simulation. Some rich kid outside this universe has been playing SimUniverse on the home computer. When the rich kid's mum calls him/her/it for dinner s/h/it presses the pause button. Nothing happens in our universe until s/h/it un-pauses. Has any time actually passed? Would any of us notice?
I think the answer depends on whether you are inside the simulation or outside it. From our perspective inside the simulation there is no change and no time passes.
edited 14 hours ago
answered 16 hours ago
MattClarkeMattClarke
22314
22314
add a comment |
add a comment |
It seems to me that you are asking about the nature of a thing (what you call stasis) that is constructed such that it has no bearing on anything at all.
You could construct an arbitrary number of such hypothetical phenomena, or argue that there can be at most one such phenomenon, since there is no observable or measurable difference between them, not even in theory.
What I would like to ask you, then, is this: If the presence of your phenomenon causes absolutely no difference, compared to the total absence of your phenomenon, then what good is it discussing the phenomenon, instead of discarding the idea as fruitless?
New contributor
This is an interesting perspective about the presence of a phenomenon that causes absolutely no difference. If you have a reference to someone who takes a similar view that would help support your answer and give the reader (myself) a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago
1
Thank you for your answer and welcome here! I don't fully understand what you mean with 'no relevance'. In my example there are differences, but they don't change, like if everything were freezed. To make a very simple example related to movement, every objects stays in the same mutual position. Or do you maybe argue that complete stasis is (physically or logically) impossible?
– Francesco D'Isa
11 hours ago
@FrankHubeny: I surely am not the first person to think these thoughts, but unfortunately I am not well read in philosophy, so I cannot offer references to others who share a similar point of view.
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa: If I understood you correctly, you preface your question with this hypothesis: "It may be that sometimes, everything goes into perfect statis temporarily, as if someone paused a movie, and then resumes, without leaving any trace of the stasis at all." This precludes anyone, or anything, from noticing the statis. My question then is: why not "pretend" there is no such thing, and is it really "pretending" if it yields a description of reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from the description containing the stasis phenomenon?
– RQM
9 hours ago
@RQM because being the example is logically possible, even if it could be physically impossibile, we can see that time is change. The question is not about the possibility of my hypothesis, but its logical consequences.
– Francesco D'Isa
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
It seems to me that you are asking about the nature of a thing (what you call stasis) that is constructed such that it has no bearing on anything at all.
You could construct an arbitrary number of such hypothetical phenomena, or argue that there can be at most one such phenomenon, since there is no observable or measurable difference between them, not even in theory.
What I would like to ask you, then, is this: If the presence of your phenomenon causes absolutely no difference, compared to the total absence of your phenomenon, then what good is it discussing the phenomenon, instead of discarding the idea as fruitless?
New contributor
This is an interesting perspective about the presence of a phenomenon that causes absolutely no difference. If you have a reference to someone who takes a similar view that would help support your answer and give the reader (myself) a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago
1
Thank you for your answer and welcome here! I don't fully understand what you mean with 'no relevance'. In my example there are differences, but they don't change, like if everything were freezed. To make a very simple example related to movement, every objects stays in the same mutual position. Or do you maybe argue that complete stasis is (physically or logically) impossible?
– Francesco D'Isa
11 hours ago
@FrankHubeny: I surely am not the first person to think these thoughts, but unfortunately I am not well read in philosophy, so I cannot offer references to others who share a similar point of view.
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa: If I understood you correctly, you preface your question with this hypothesis: "It may be that sometimes, everything goes into perfect statis temporarily, as if someone paused a movie, and then resumes, without leaving any trace of the stasis at all." This precludes anyone, or anything, from noticing the statis. My question then is: why not "pretend" there is no such thing, and is it really "pretending" if it yields a description of reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from the description containing the stasis phenomenon?
– RQM
9 hours ago
@RQM because being the example is logically possible, even if it could be physically impossibile, we can see that time is change. The question is not about the possibility of my hypothesis, but its logical consequences.
– Francesco D'Isa
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
It seems to me that you are asking about the nature of a thing (what you call stasis) that is constructed such that it has no bearing on anything at all.
You could construct an arbitrary number of such hypothetical phenomena, or argue that there can be at most one such phenomenon, since there is no observable or measurable difference between them, not even in theory.
What I would like to ask you, then, is this: If the presence of your phenomenon causes absolutely no difference, compared to the total absence of your phenomenon, then what good is it discussing the phenomenon, instead of discarding the idea as fruitless?
New contributor
It seems to me that you are asking about the nature of a thing (what you call stasis) that is constructed such that it has no bearing on anything at all.
You could construct an arbitrary number of such hypothetical phenomena, or argue that there can be at most one such phenomenon, since there is no observable or measurable difference between them, not even in theory.
What I would like to ask you, then, is this: If the presence of your phenomenon causes absolutely no difference, compared to the total absence of your phenomenon, then what good is it discussing the phenomenon, instead of discarding the idea as fruitless?
New contributor
New contributor
answered 11 hours ago
RQMRQM
101
101
New contributor
New contributor
This is an interesting perspective about the presence of a phenomenon that causes absolutely no difference. If you have a reference to someone who takes a similar view that would help support your answer and give the reader (myself) a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago
1
Thank you for your answer and welcome here! I don't fully understand what you mean with 'no relevance'. In my example there are differences, but they don't change, like if everything were freezed. To make a very simple example related to movement, every objects stays in the same mutual position. Or do you maybe argue that complete stasis is (physically or logically) impossible?
– Francesco D'Isa
11 hours ago
@FrankHubeny: I surely am not the first person to think these thoughts, but unfortunately I am not well read in philosophy, so I cannot offer references to others who share a similar point of view.
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa: If I understood you correctly, you preface your question with this hypothesis: "It may be that sometimes, everything goes into perfect statis temporarily, as if someone paused a movie, and then resumes, without leaving any trace of the stasis at all." This precludes anyone, or anything, from noticing the statis. My question then is: why not "pretend" there is no such thing, and is it really "pretending" if it yields a description of reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from the description containing the stasis phenomenon?
– RQM
9 hours ago
@RQM because being the example is logically possible, even if it could be physically impossibile, we can see that time is change. The question is not about the possibility of my hypothesis, but its logical consequences.
– Francesco D'Isa
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
This is an interesting perspective about the presence of a phenomenon that causes absolutely no difference. If you have a reference to someone who takes a similar view that would help support your answer and give the reader (myself) a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago
1
Thank you for your answer and welcome here! I don't fully understand what you mean with 'no relevance'. In my example there are differences, but they don't change, like if everything were freezed. To make a very simple example related to movement, every objects stays in the same mutual position. Or do you maybe argue that complete stasis is (physically or logically) impossible?
– Francesco D'Isa
11 hours ago
@FrankHubeny: I surely am not the first person to think these thoughts, but unfortunately I am not well read in philosophy, so I cannot offer references to others who share a similar point of view.
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa: If I understood you correctly, you preface your question with this hypothesis: "It may be that sometimes, everything goes into perfect statis temporarily, as if someone paused a movie, and then resumes, without leaving any trace of the stasis at all." This precludes anyone, or anything, from noticing the statis. My question then is: why not "pretend" there is no such thing, and is it really "pretending" if it yields a description of reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from the description containing the stasis phenomenon?
– RQM
9 hours ago
@RQM because being the example is logically possible, even if it could be physically impossibile, we can see that time is change. The question is not about the possibility of my hypothesis, but its logical consequences.
– Francesco D'Isa
7 hours ago
This is an interesting perspective about the presence of a phenomenon that causes absolutely no difference. If you have a reference to someone who takes a similar view that would help support your answer and give the reader (myself) a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago
This is an interesting perspective about the presence of a phenomenon that causes absolutely no difference. If you have a reference to someone who takes a similar view that would help support your answer and give the reader (myself) a place to go for more information. Welcome to Philosophy!
– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago
1
1
Thank you for your answer and welcome here! I don't fully understand what you mean with 'no relevance'. In my example there are differences, but they don't change, like if everything were freezed. To make a very simple example related to movement, every objects stays in the same mutual position. Or do you maybe argue that complete stasis is (physically or logically) impossible?
– Francesco D'Isa
11 hours ago
Thank you for your answer and welcome here! I don't fully understand what you mean with 'no relevance'. In my example there are differences, but they don't change, like if everything were freezed. To make a very simple example related to movement, every objects stays in the same mutual position. Or do you maybe argue that complete stasis is (physically or logically) impossible?
– Francesco D'Isa
11 hours ago
@FrankHubeny: I surely am not the first person to think these thoughts, but unfortunately I am not well read in philosophy, so I cannot offer references to others who share a similar point of view.
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrankHubeny: I surely am not the first person to think these thoughts, but unfortunately I am not well read in philosophy, so I cannot offer references to others who share a similar point of view.
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa: If I understood you correctly, you preface your question with this hypothesis: "It may be that sometimes, everything goes into perfect statis temporarily, as if someone paused a movie, and then resumes, without leaving any trace of the stasis at all." This precludes anyone, or anything, from noticing the statis. My question then is: why not "pretend" there is no such thing, and is it really "pretending" if it yields a description of reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from the description containing the stasis phenomenon?
– RQM
9 hours ago
@FrancescoD'Isa: If I understood you correctly, you preface your question with this hypothesis: "It may be that sometimes, everything goes into perfect statis temporarily, as if someone paused a movie, and then resumes, without leaving any trace of the stasis at all." This precludes anyone, or anything, from noticing the statis. My question then is: why not "pretend" there is no such thing, and is it really "pretending" if it yields a description of reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from the description containing the stasis phenomenon?
– RQM
9 hours ago
@RQM because being the example is logically possible, even if it could be physically impossibile, we can see that time is change. The question is not about the possibility of my hypothesis, but its logical consequences.
– Francesco D'Isa
7 hours ago
@RQM because being the example is logically possible, even if it could be physically impossibile, we can see that time is change. The question is not about the possibility of my hypothesis, but its logical consequences.
– Francesco D'Isa
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
If you feel there are two (duality), there must be a second thing (i.e., 'YOU' and the 'second thing'). And so there must be a second thought. So, even though the Truth is, 'Time is an illusion', I would say (since we are already familiar with Time and it has made a deep impression in our mind) if there are two, Time can exist. There is no need to think of units of time or changing definitions of Time. Even the 'duality experience' implies that there is a change from YOU and the second thing.
In deep sleep, even while so many changes happen in your body, you are not aware of Time. I mean, 'making other things still' is not the problem.
-1: You are not answering the question, but stating your own opinion.
– Jishin Noben
4 hours ago
add a comment |
If you feel there are two (duality), there must be a second thing (i.e., 'YOU' and the 'second thing'). And so there must be a second thought. So, even though the Truth is, 'Time is an illusion', I would say (since we are already familiar with Time and it has made a deep impression in our mind) if there are two, Time can exist. There is no need to think of units of time or changing definitions of Time. Even the 'duality experience' implies that there is a change from YOU and the second thing.
In deep sleep, even while so many changes happen in your body, you are not aware of Time. I mean, 'making other things still' is not the problem.
-1: You are not answering the question, but stating your own opinion.
– Jishin Noben
4 hours ago
add a comment |
If you feel there are two (duality), there must be a second thing (i.e., 'YOU' and the 'second thing'). And so there must be a second thought. So, even though the Truth is, 'Time is an illusion', I would say (since we are already familiar with Time and it has made a deep impression in our mind) if there are two, Time can exist. There is no need to think of units of time or changing definitions of Time. Even the 'duality experience' implies that there is a change from YOU and the second thing.
In deep sleep, even while so many changes happen in your body, you are not aware of Time. I mean, 'making other things still' is not the problem.
If you feel there are two (duality), there must be a second thing (i.e., 'YOU' and the 'second thing'). And so there must be a second thought. So, even though the Truth is, 'Time is an illusion', I would say (since we are already familiar with Time and it has made a deep impression in our mind) if there are two, Time can exist. There is no need to think of units of time or changing definitions of Time. Even the 'duality experience' implies that there is a change from YOU and the second thing.
In deep sleep, even while so many changes happen in your body, you are not aware of Time. I mean, 'making other things still' is not the problem.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
SonOfThoughtSonOfThought
1,52939
1,52939
-1: You are not answering the question, but stating your own opinion.
– Jishin Noben
4 hours ago
add a comment |
-1: You are not answering the question, but stating your own opinion.
– Jishin Noben
4 hours ago
-1: You are not answering the question, but stating your own opinion.
– Jishin Noben
4 hours ago
-1: You are not answering the question, but stating your own opinion.
– Jishin Noben
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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2
Newton's invention of the calculus gives an alternative to your last issue. He introduced the notion of the derivative tendency toward change, at the same time, Leibniz introduced the notion of an 'infinitessimal' change, a change too small for humans to comprehend it, yet still present. Our modern notions of physics incorporate such things as the moment of inertia to reflect not just real differences, but the established tendency to change unless some other influence enters the picture. So that change can still be represented at a single point in time.
– jobermark
yesterday
Durin my eyes closed you suppose my mind also in a stasis? What is the force that opens my eyes then?
– rus9384
yesterday
1
It is the thing that turns a collection of points into a continuous line. We do not have a good explicit description of it, but it is central to a lot of modern mathematics. The point is that time is woven into our intuition of continuity, and if we factor it out, we still have this notion of 'fat points' that are connected by this 'halo of inclination'. It is also part of our notion of continuous space, and it is captured only by limit processes, which depend implicitly on our notion of iteration and time or by 'nonstandard' objects that capture a notion of 'transcendence' which does too.
– jobermark
23 hours ago
3
Sir Roger Penrose has an interesting theory. Mass requires time. While ever there is mass in the universe there'll be entropy and therefore change. But in the 'very boring' (heat death) phase there'll come a point where there is no mass, only photons. And a photon doesn't experience time, therefore the size of the universe becomes irrelevant and the conditions resemble that of the big bang. In that phase of the universe time may still exist but without any change in entropy. He claims at some point the universe will 'forget' it's age and size.
– Richard
21 hours ago
1
@FrancescoD'Isa Penrose is a great man. He solved the Rubik's cube with 'group theory' as a kind of aside. Brilliant mathematician, brilliant physicist, but also quite philosophically aware and free thinking. This is a nice interview youtube.com/watch?v=z2_6h15UCMg. This is where his passion lies (one of my favourite videos on youtube youtube.com/watch?v=th3YMEamzmw. For simulation theory look for 'two time' and the standard model.
– Richard
11 hours ago